Oppo Advice

"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390) 04/30/2018 at 22:20 • Filed to: Oppohelp

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Tired of waiting for a starter motor I ordered a week ago from a state away, I decided to pick up a starter from my friend who lives 30 minutes away tomorrow. Only problem is it’s got the threaded portion of a 19mm bolt in there. Can’t weld a nut and wrench it off at home. Any ideas?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/30/2018 at 22:26

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It’s got kind of a shelf where you can’t use a Vise-Grip on it, right? I’m not sure right off what could dissolve the oxides well, so I’m not sure how to get it loose enough to not require massive force...

MM54 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/30/2018 at 22:39

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A bit of your favorite flavor penetrating oil (PB, Kroil, Liquid Wench, whatever) from both ends and vice grips firmly clamped on the bit of bolt sticking out (perpendicular to the bolt, like a wrench - not on-axis like a socket). Starter clamped down or in a vice, and give it some twist, maybe tap on the vice grips with a hammer too.

Shift24 > MM54 04/30/2018 at 22:57

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Yes and make sure the vice grips have really good teeth

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > MM54 04/30/2018 at 23:22

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I don’t think there’s enough material to vice grip onto. Any other ideas? I won’t how how much is on there until tomorrow.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/30/2018 at 23:23

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A what? You’ve lost me.

lone_liberal > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/30/2018 at 23:25

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If you can’t get it with Vice Grips or other less destructive methods you might try a left-handed drill bit on a reversible drill then an extractor if it doesn’t spin out with the drill bit.

benjrblant > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/30/2018 at 23:30

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A bolt extractor? One of those kits with the twist extractors and drill bits:

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > benjrblant 04/30/2018 at 23:47

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Oh yeah! I forgot about those. I have an extractor set and a drill. Will the drill have enough juice to do it?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > lone_liberal 04/30/2018 at 23:48

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My most destructive method is a drill press. I have an extractor set and an electric drill that might have some juice in it.

Patrick Nichols > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/30/2018 at 23:53

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If it doesn’t, maybe an impact wrench will?

AdverseMartyr > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/01/2018 at 00:08

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I think he’s referring to the videos of a guy taking some household chemical, and creating a bath chamber around the bolt/hole to dissolve the bolt - or at least the rust holding it in the hole.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Patrick Nichols 05/01/2018 at 00:15

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Haven’t got one of those.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/01/2018 at 00:22

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MY advice is to do an iron duke swap...

Patrick Nichols > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/01/2018 at 00:31

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Maybe I used the wrong term, but I always thought impact drivers were pretty common. If your ever investing in more tools, I find myself using mine quite a bit. Especially since any good deal on cordless sets usually includes both, I like to keep a drill bit in my drill and the socket, torx, or philips bit in the impact driver for putting in longer wood screws or timberloks. Found it especially helpful when rewiring my boat trailer to get off the pesky rusted on bolts for the taillights.

Urambo Tauro > AdverseMartyr 05/01/2018 at 01:08

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This one?

AdverseMartyr > Urambo Tauro 05/01/2018 at 02:28

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Maybe, or a similar one.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/01/2018 at 09:06

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I thought I was seeing a bumped up “lip” on the face of the starter that would have made it harder to get a set of vise-grips on. I wasn’t looking at it right - but here’s where I thought I saw one:

As to chemicals, I was thinking along the lines of TSP or vinegar or something to dissolve the rust (like AdverseMartyr describes), but I can’t be sure what would work. Phosphoric acid, probably, but there’s no chance you have some.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > AdverseMartyr 05/01/2018 at 09:15

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Wasn’t referring to videos as such, but same general idea. The (chemical) basis of the idea would be to dissolve either the rust or the other oxide, or failing that, to dissolve enough metal to get the oxides loose. Phosphoric acid would be the top choice because it’s the basis of rust converters and naval jelly and whatnot - what it doesn’t dissolve, it converts to iron phosphate. Don’t know what would loosen the aluminum or zinc oxide from the iron oxide, though - might loosen just being put into an active solution like that.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 05/01/2018 at 10:03

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Ah. You’re right that I haven’t got phosphoric acid laying around. I thought about torching it but that won’t work and or damage the internals maybe. I’ve got vinegar.

Where that lip is a flat surface.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/01/2018 at 10:24

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Getting it hot enough with a torch just right would drive the water out of the rust and force the white oxides to break down... but would also affect the temper of the metal that’s there, leaving it soft enough that it might shear instead of turning loose. Which, the next option would be just to use an EZ-out, but it’s not fun to try something and have to do something else anyway. Plus, getting it exactly hot enough not to just fuse some of the aluminum (?) to the steel is tricky. I’ve been on the wrong side of that at least once. The fact that the oxides are insulators that resist getting hot themselves until the stud/bolt is up to glowing hot also makes this risky, as does the risk of damaging the face.

What makes it a pain for penetrants is that while some penetrants are okay for rust, aluminum and pot metal oxides don’t really absorb or transfer oils/non-polars very well. You can soak it with PB or kroil, and the rust will all be wet, but there will still be a layer of rust fused to zinc or aluminum white crystal crusting the whole thing into the hole. See, rust and most other powdery or crusty corrosion actually has water from the air as part of the crystal structure, which helps the whole thing stay clingy, and makes it expand - which keeps things tight, and repels oils.

All this is to say, I need to build an electrolysis kit and/or lay some more acids aside so the next time I run into one of these horrors I can try something other than what I know how to do that sucks.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/01/2018 at 10:31

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Just thought to say - the place I work uses acid with electrolysis to clean up welds on stainless and dips 304 pieces to remove contamination. I think in both cases it’s actually citric acid, because we want to be able to get rid of it without hazardous materials people going REEEEE.

Which means, not only does citric acid work for iron-related breakdown compounds, but it’s an acid you might have around if somebody in the family has vitamin C tablets or Emergen-C. I don’t know how much would do the job, but I may need to try that on something next chance I get.

Also, evaporust does work somewhat, it’s just slow and expensive. I’ve used it on some old Warn locking hubs that were white+rust crusty from being left outside. By an idiot. And rained on. For years.

MM54 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/01/2018 at 12:24

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It’s worth trying, from the picture it looks like you could get some decent bite on there.

I assume you don’t have left-hand drill bits or I’d say the second option would be to drill it out

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > MM54 05/01/2018 at 13:55

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Just picked it up an hour ago. He welded some material on top the bolt for my to vice onto. He’s an outstanding guy!

AdverseMartyr > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 05/01/2018 at 21:03

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Yeah... your three comment explanation is exactly what I thought you were referring to... not that I understood any of that before you said it. :) So Citric acid can be good for rust removal? Does it absolutely require the electrolysis?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > AdverseMartyr 05/01/2018 at 22:06

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Sufficiently concentrated citric acid should, *I think*, work to remove or loosen rust. With or without electricity. I haven’t tried it myself from home goods, just going off memory of what the hippie friendly stuff in the tank is.

If I remember this correctly, for an acid to dissolve a metal oxide, it has to (a)have favorable energy difference in the reaction, and (b) have an anion sized and shaped so that it can interact, aka so it can engage the surface and the oxide can sort of dissolve and react. Phosphoric acid is good for both, iirc, because it’s polyprotic (and kind of the ‘right shape’) and iron phosphate is lower energy than iron (III) oxide. So, two phosphate ions cling to an Fe2O3 clump on the surface and shake the oxygens loose to make water and iron phosphate.

Citric acid is way more complicated in comparison, but likes metals in general. Just might be slow.